Indie Game Reading Club

Day 11: Best unwanted outcome from procedural uncertainty?

One of my favorite things about digging into indie games for me has been all the out-of-the-box thinking that goes on. The more common and unchallenged the topic, the better!

I think it was Vincent Baker​​​​ who said something about the point of uncertainty being to produce unwanted outcomes. After literally decades of systems that struggled to make all outcomes acceptable, this I think really resonated with a lot of us. Hero points to nudge failures into successes, feats and talents and whatevers to fudge over fumbles and misses, novel die-rolling schemes, all in the service of “making the player feel heroic.” Which starts from such screwed-up assumptions about heroic that I can’t even.

There was a friend of mine, many years ago, who had this idea for a novel. He recited the whole thing to me on a through-hike into deep wilderness and it was one of those super deep sharing moments that you can only have away from the world. So he’s obviously modeled the main character against himself; fair point, dude was a forward observer for the US Marines during Desert Storm, full of lots of traumatic experiences and interesting training. But at every twist, he’d quickly point out “…but my character wouldn’t be so screwed up as I am, he’d know what to do.” And after a couple days of that talk, I had to stop him and say “No. No…that’s no good at all. He needs to be screwed up! Things need to go wrong! Then we have something to root for. We need to not be sure he can do the thing, so when he does the thing we can love him for overcoming his weaknesses.”

The cool thing about Vincent’s observation about unwanted outcomes is that it turns conflict resolution on its head. It allows the table to move on from worshiping success and fearing failure. It’s “unwanted outcomes” but they’re also wanted because at the creative level, everyone agrees that we need bad things to overcome. It’s the impossible thing, made totally possible because we can manipulate our perspective from moment to moment.

My best unwanted outcome: When the most Glorious knight in our King Arthur Pendragon game ate shit in a meaningless fight. He was the golden child, beloved by all factions; other knights envied him but loved him so much they wanted to see him succeed as well. And then he just fucking died.

His replacement was the younger brother, the only suitable heir, and he was a total shitheel. For the rest of the campaign, we’d compare him unfavorably to the golden son who had passed. The characters despised the younger son; the players (including the player of both the shitheel and the deceased) loved that dynamic. It was only possible because the player wasn’t able to discard the unwanted outcome, to throw a hero point at saving himself, to veto.

Embracing unwanted outcomes is the core of being true to your fiction, and there’s nothing more rewarding when the fiction is your desired end product.


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I founded the Indie Game Reading Club in 2010. I've written and developed RPGs since the mid-90s, now I mostly talk about playing them.

10 Comments on “Day 11: Best unwanted outcome from procedural uncertainty?

  1. It’s going to start September 1, but to get your creative juices flowing, here’s the official Indie Game Reading Club’s list of questions to ponder.
    Obviously this is needed because the #RPGaDAY list is so freighted with assumptions about RPGs that mostly it’s incomprehensible if you’re not in that scene any more.
    1. When were you last deprotagonized? What happened and how did you reassert your agency?
    2. What game created your most elaborate relationship map? How much of it did you actually use?
    3. What’s your favorite behavioral incentive?
    4. What’s your favorite perverse behavioral incentive?
    5. Would you say rolling dice to have sex is hot, dirty, deprotagonizing, or all the above?
    6. How many PbtA games do you own, and which one best captures its most clichéd genre tropes?
    7. When did you last spend more time setting up a situation and talking about the situation after than actually playing in that situation?
    8. What was your most awesome fight online about what does and does not constitute a story-game?
    9. When was the last time an indie game made you feel guilty about your race, gender, or sexual identity? Were you more or less woke after you played it?
    10. When did you most recently refuse to play a trad game because the central facilitation role was granted too much creative authority?
    11. Best unwanted fictional input generated by procedural uncertainty?
    12. Best story about waiting for players in a GMless game to finally get to the point in a scene they’ve called for but obviously had no idea why they wanted it in the first place?
    13. What’s the most you’ve spent on a Kickstarter game relative to the amount of play it received?
    14. What’s the most play-disruptive discovery you’ve made when you insist on playing by the actual printed rules?
    15. When was the last time you unironically used the word “diegetic?”
    16. GMs: abusers, control freaks or both? Best story explaining why this is so.
    17. Do you buy your legal-sized paper by the ream or by the case? Do you ever try to reuse your playbooks or just start fresh every time?
    18. What’s your best story about a precious snowflake character some trad player brought to the table because it was “clever?” How did you call them out?
    19. What kind of shit-fit did you throw the last time someone tried to schedule your convention game in a ballroom like you’re playing fucking Pathfinder or something?
    20. What’s your best story about falling all over yourself trying to rescue a bunch of awesome fiction that just got invalidated after making a fortune-at-the-end roll like some commoner?
    21. What was the last OSR game you tried to play, but quit because you realized there’s literally no mechanical support for a storyline at all?
    22. How many friendships have you terminated because they confessed they kind of like to play Fate games sometimes? It’s okay. Fate players have to hear the truth.
    23. Tell your most scandalous story about getting X-carded.
    24. What was the very saddest thing you wrote on an index card?
    25. Do you like your scene framing hard, harder, or hardest? What’s the very hardest you’ve had your scene framed?
    26. When you interrogate the nature of heroism in your game, do you prefer to directly or indirectly invoke Lacanianism?
    27. What’s the very best playtest-stage game your friends probably haven’t heard of yet? How long ago did you play it and how much better was it than the current version?
    28. What’s the most interesting period of obscure and unrelatable history you’d like to see a game set in? How would you do it?
    29. What indie game tech do you most keenly miss when you play something more mainstream? And then do you denounce the game in person or do you save it for a social media rant?
    30. What is your fondest memory of a game you thought was fun before you knew better?

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  2. I plussed, but with a caveat about “The cool thing about Vincent’s observation about unwanted outcomes is that it turns conflict resolution on its head.”

    Conflict resolution was ALWAYS about that. Giving players what they wanted, whatever they rolled, was instead the “appeal” of task resolution and story-before: the GM already decided that you had to find a clue, you would find it, whatever you rolled. Conflict resolution was a reaction to that: REAL rolls, with REAL failures, that the GM could not gloss over.

    Conflict resolution is about success or failure, period. If your game doesn’t have the chance of failure it isn’t conflict resolution and it never was.

  3. I don’t understand what’s meant by “procedural uncertainty,” or how that leads to uncertain outcomes.

    I do love it when something I can’t anticipate turns out terrible for my character in a very satisfying way, though.

  4. I think that the whole point of adventuring is that bad shit happens and you deal with it, right?

    Yesterday a PC got turned into a wraith by a random encounter with 3 wraiths.

  5. I mean, from a pure OSR sandbox point of view, I run stuff pretty much completely procedurally (except if I want to hasten play for reasons). So my role as a GM becomes be more of an MC than a “narrative controller”: there is no plot, players decide what to do and where to go, there are consequences, emergent story instead of story first, etc.

    In my games, fun happens because of engaging bad shit.

  6. Our Breakers gang in blades. We had a plan. We had a mission. We had friends to build, actions planned … and then an entanglement hit us. Just a casual roll.

    Someone much, much bigger wanted our turf. And was pretty unreasonable about it. So we dropped our initial arc, refocused, and got embroiled in a long gang war that ate up most of the middle story of our game.

    We lost friends, we gained traumas, and all because one die came up a specific number.

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